Life, Love and Online Dating

Throwing out the wish list

Dec 17th, 2009 by Mike

I’ll never forget the day that my lawyer friend came to help me on a construction project I was doing. He was completely out of his element but also willing to learn and a very quick study. It was a good experience for him and I’m sure he got more exercise than he normally does at the gym. I don’t think he will give up his day job to become a construction worker but he did get a glimpse of what it would be like. It was a new experience for him but it wasn’t a comfortable situation to be so far out of his element.

This is what I was referring to when I said that I wouldn’t know how to be in a healthy relationship. A relationship that is actually building something rather than resolving issues of previous relationships (like a divorce lawyer does). I’m not saying that I wouldn’t be up for it, or wouldn’t quit my day job of finding toxic relationships. It would just be awkward and uncomfortable for me, at first, not to have to “fix” somebody.

Recognizing that I have a tendency to get into unhealthy relationships is not enough to change that pattern. I would have to know what a healthy relationship looks like if I wanted to find one. This is where having expectations or a “Wish list” becomes very limiting. By clinging to the idea that I know what I want, I might miss out on something I never even knew existed. Hey, I didn’t know I liked sushi until I tried it.

So, now it is more a matter of knowing what I don’t want. That’s a more clear list to understand because it is all the things that I have experienced. I know I don’t like okra because I’ve tried it. It’s amusing how many people will say, “That’s because you haven’t tried MY okra”. Look, it’s okra whether you fry it, boil it, bread it or blend it into a milkshake it’s still on my list of things I do NOT want.

As far as not being alone for five minutes is concerned, I’ve been alone for five years. Just because I can be alone doesn’t mean I should be or want to be. And I don’t see anything wrong with tossing out the wish list and trying some new relationships. How can I possibly know if a relationship will work or not unless I bother to take the time to find out? At the very least, I may learn a few more things that I like or dislike.

Tags: fixing relationships, relationships

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Being Alone for Five Minutes – It’s Not the End of the World

Dec 16th, 2009 by Tiffany

This may seem an unlikely starting premise for a dating and relationship blogger, but getting into a relationship isn’t necessarily everyone’s ultimate goal…nor should it be. I intended to write about something else today, but this line from Mike’s post about unhealthy relationship patterns hit me so hard that I had to drop what I was working on and respond: “I fall into unhealthy relationships because that is all I know. If I met a person who was capable of being in a healthy relationship, I wouldn’t know how to interact with that person and that is not a comfortable situation to be in.”

I’ve read those two sentences at least a dozen times trying to find some kind of meaning in them that makes it reasonable or consistent to continue to pursue relationships, and I just can’t find it. All I can glean from this is that Mike is saying that he’s incapable of a healthy relationship and that if he finds a woman he knows how to interact with, that means she’s also incapable of a healthy relationship. That would seem very healthy and self-aware and like a step in the right direction if he weren’t…you know…looking for a relationship. But when we put those two things together, what possible conclusion can you draw except that he’s knowingly seeking out an unhealthy relationship with an unhealthy woman?

This isn’t, obviously, just about Mike’s post. It is, in fact, one of those unhealthy patterns he talks about. People who aren’t healthy enough to form healthy relationships work hard at getting into relationships–probably harder than the healthy people, because they’re looking to fill some kind of need. But I think most of them actually believe that finding the “right person” will “fix” everything. The thing that stunned me about Mike’s comment was the awareness, the conscious decision to do something that you’ve already determined can’t possibly work.

And who wants to be that woman? I know Mike would (and often does) say I’m too picky, but there’s something about a guy basically saying “You know, I wouldn’t know what to do with a normal woman who was capable of a healthy relationship, so maybe I could go out with you” that’s decidedly unromantic and unflattering.

Yet, consciously or unconsciously, it seems to be a societal norm. People in all stages of brokenness and confusion are encouraged by friends, relatives, the media and their own unfulfilled needs to “get back out there” and “find someone”. (Lather. Rinse. Repeat.)

What’s wrong with getting comfortable with yourself first? What’s so unthinkable about working on the problems that keep you from forming healthy relationships before you try to build another one? Why don’t the basic principles that apply everywhere else in life seem to apply in the relationship arena?

If you were building a house on a concrete slab and the whole process went to hell because you didn’t let the concrete dry before you moved on to the next step, would you start over and make the same mistake? How many times would that have to happen before you realized that you were never going to get anywhere if you didn’t let the concrete dry first?

Tags: bad choices, bad relationships, codependence, unhealthy relationships

Posted in relationships | 2 Comments »

Birds of a feather DON’T flock together

Dec 14th, 2009 by Mike

Of course, she just wasn’t that into me. But, the reason for that is what I think is the more interesting part. I wasn’t what she was used to. She wasn’t used to being around someone who didn’t “need” her for something. She didn’t know what to do with that. How do you feel secure in a relationship with someone who doesn’t completely rely on you? It’s not easy. Personally, I can’t think of anything better than having someone simply “Want” to be around me for who I am and not what they need from me. But people want to feel like they are connecting with other people on some level.

Patterns are very difficult to break for many people. I’m guilty of this myself, I fall into bad patterns and simply recognizing that is not enough to get out. It’s not a matter of simply knowing that something isn’t working, you have to know what does work before you can make any changes. I fall into unhealthy relationships because that is all I know. If I met a person who was capable of being in a healthy relationship, I wouldn’t know how to interact with that person and that is not a comfortable situation to be in.

I don’t ft into a normal category because I am well rounded. I’m a fairly manly man, I work construction and have even been known to stitch myself up like Rambo. I also know how to cook, clean and sew. This is often taken as being girlie and being a nice guy is often mistaken as a sign of weakness. Many people aren’t sure what to do with that, they don’t know what “stereotype” I fall into. The bottom line is that I don’t. Stereotypes have a certain degree of usefulness in that they help us to interact with certain types of people.

Addicts will seek out enablers, givers will seek out takers and cheaters will seek out gullible partners. This is the path of the least resistance. The easiest relationships to form are with the people whose personality is the complimentary opposite of yours. It’s like a match made in heaven because it feeds something in you. Something that probably shouldn’t even be there to begin with. You see, birds of a feather do not flock together.

Is it right for an addict to want an enabler? The enabler wants it too, they want someone to take care of, someone to heal. Is it right for a kind and generous person to want someone to take advantage of them? People who take advantage do need a “mark”. So, in response to the question, “Is there a right thing to want?” I would have to say that there certainly is. There is also a “Healthy” thing to want and a “What you should want”.

Tags: bad relationships, choices, relationships

Posted in dating drama, relationships | 1 Comment »

Maybe She’s Just Not that Into You

Dec 9th, 2009 by Tiffany

Oh, come on, Mike. We all know you can read. And most of us are pretty sure you don’t really think that saying sometimes a person is too worn out and stretched too thin to enjoy socializing is the same as promoting the idea that being married is like having an extra child. That’s not even apples and oranges: it’s more like apples and distributor caps or rain boots and oranges.

But as long as we’re on the subject, let’s talk about that stereotype. I don’t want to name any names, but someone around here once told me that most stereotypes existed for a reason. Someone, somewhere, made that comment for the first time: some woman sighed and said to her friend or to her sister, “It’s like having a fifth child.” She didn’t say it because she was conditioned by stereotypes, because the stereotype didn’t exist yet. She said it because she was bone tired from picking up her husband’s dirty clothes off the floor and watching him track mud across her newly-mopped floors, or because somehow the things he promised to take care of never quite got done but he could never just come out and admit that he hadn’t done them and wasn’t going to do them, or because they were dead broke and he bought a car stereo instead of paying the rent.

Maybe it was just because no matter how little cash they had, he insisted on walking past the fifty cent bottles of Pepsi in the refrigerator and stopping at the gas station a mile down the road to pay $1.29 for an identical bottle of Pepsi every single day. Just as a completely random hypothetical example that has nothingwhatsoever to do with my ex-husband.

Are all men like that? Of course not. Are most men like that? I don’t know. Are enough men like that to have started women making that comparison? Obviously. Should those women stop talking honestly about their experiences because someone else might hear them and might extrapolate and so might unfairly think that you’re more work than you think you are? I don’t think so. But I think the question is moot anyway, and here’s why: I don’t think that those women who tell you they’re stretched too thin to date are saying that because they think they’re going to have to pick your socks up off the floor. I think they’re saying it because they don’t want to date you.

Is that personal? I have no idea. Maybe they don’t want to date you, and maybe they just don’t want to date, and that includes you. I am, as you know, prone to those “just don’t want to date” phases (or decades). Obviously not every woman thinks the same, but I can promise you that I’ve never once thought, “Wow, I’d really enjoy going out to dinner with him, but then we might start to like each other and we might get serious and we might move in together or get married and the next thing I know I’ll be picking up his socks off the floor. I’m too busy for that.” The reality is more like “Do I want to go out to dinner with him? Not so much. I’d really rather take a long bath and read a good book.”

Posted in gender differences, men, relationships, women | 1 Comment »

A man to clean up after

Dec 7th, 2009 by Mike

I heard an advertisement on the radio today that fell in line with what Tiffany is trying to encourage people to believe. The Ad had a woman talking about raising her kids and said something like, “Even the big one I call my husband”. This is part of the common view that I am trying to demystify. The view that says that a husband is like another child to raise and women have to be independent, strong and never ask for help or complain about being overwhelmed.

Of course, I’m not saying that women in a position of being stretched to a breaking point should lose sleep and find time to date. There are times in our lives when we simply have too much on our plate and it would be unfair and counterproductive to bring anyone else into the equation. THAT, I understand.

What I don’t understand (and probably never will) is how I can be viewed as such a burden when I consider myself to be very self-sufficient. I am raising a daughter on my own, cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, working and (occasionally) managing to pay my bills. I’ll admit that I sometimes leave the toilet seat up but I don’t think that is really a deal breaker.

Considering what I believe that I have to offer, I am insulted that there are women who believe that a man is simply another child to raise. My whole point was that (and this may be a catch 22) you may have more time to date if you had someone to take out the trash, mow the lawn, share the cooking and cleaning, etc.

Women seem to like “bad boys”. They are unpredictable, exciting and hard to obtain. It’s a thrilling adventure to try and catch a wild bad boy and mold him into the man of your dreams, a faithful and honest partner in life. Where a decent man with morals, a job and stability is more like asparagus. He may be good for you but simply lacks flavor.

Tags: bad boys, dating, relationships

Posted in dating drama, men, women | 1 Comment »

Is There a “Right” Thing to Want?

Dec 6th, 2009 by Tiffany

I’m a little bored with Mike’s efforts to justify clinging to bad relationship after bad relationship (and after reading my email this evening, I think some of you are, too), so I’m going to circle back and address something he mentioned a while back that got lost in the shuffle: the idea that women “should” think dating and relationships will make their lives easier and more enjoyable rather than as a burden.

A word of warning up front: something unpleasant happens to my brain when people start making suggestions about how someone “should” feel. Don’t get me wrong–I’m not really a “to each his own type”. I think there are definite shoulds when it comes to our actions, and particularly to the way we treat other people. But how we “should” feel? What we “should” want? That’s just silly.

It’s a little like telling me I really should love asparagus. It might be good for me, and it might make sense to tell me I should eat it, but telling me I should LIKE it is just a waste of breath, isn’t it? Or worse, maybe it’s more like telling me I should prefer chocolate ice cream to vanilla, not even because it’s good for me but because that’s your preference so it must be the right one.

So Mike thinks, apparently, that busy women “should” want to date and start romantic relationships because those relationships “should” enhance their lives rather than creating an additional burden. This is a particular hot button with me, because there was a time when I was working full time, commuting 3+ hours a day, raising a child alone and trying to help my mother after major surgery, all while contending with health problems of my own, and a lot of my friends hounded me continually about how I should get out and “relax”. Some of them probably were well-intentioned and others just wanted me to go out with them and tried to couch it in terms of what was good for me because it would have sounded too selfish and immature to say “I think you should give up the few hours of sleep you’re getting or blow off the tiny and already inadequate number of waking hours you have with your daughter to entertain me.”

In both cases, they were dead wrong. I was pushing hard to be able to spend any time at all with my daughter and still squeeze in five hours of sleep a night. I was so tired all the time that I fell asleep on the train every single day and often awoke startled and disappointed at Union Station because I’d been dreaming that I was on my way home. On the rare occasion that I squeezed in time to socialize, it didn’t relax me at all…it just exhausted me because it either put me further behind or meant that I had to cut back to three hours of sleep. And that was with old friends–people I didn’t have to put on make-up for or make any effort at all to be lively or interesting. I’d rather have shot myself in the head than had to go through the time and effort involved in a date at that time.

Now, it seems to me that it empirically makes no sense to add something new to a schedule that already has you stretched too thin. In fact, it seems to me outrageous that anyone would consider it. But in a sense, it doesn’t even matter whether I’m objectively right or not. During that time, I experienced socializing as a heavy drain on my time and energy, and dating would have been even worse. Should I have gone ahead and done it anyway, at great personal cost, just because guys like Mike think I’m wrong to find them tiring? The idea that a man can decide for a woman that she should want to date, fantasize that she’s complaining to her friends that she can’t find a good man (something I’ve never, ever, ever complained to a girlfriend about in my entire life, and which I can recall having heard from female friends approximately twice in the roughly thirty years since I started dating), and then fault her for not being eager to date him because he’s decided spending time with him would be fun for her and not a burden strikes me as patently ridiculous.

News flash, guys: the fact that a woman is not interested in you does not mean there’s something wrong with her judgment.

Tags: dating, domineering men, needy men, nice guys, relationships

Posted in men, relationships, women | 3 Comments »

Nice guys have a limit

Dec 5th, 2009 by Mike

We make decisions based on the information that we have. When that information is a lie, it skews the decisions that we make. A woman who I had been dating for a couple months told me that she needed space. She said that she was feeling overwhelmed and didn’t know if she wanted to strangle me or have me hold her and comfort her. She didn’t look well and wasn’t acting right at the time. After not hearing from her for two days, I sent her a text message asking, “Are you okay?” I was concerned when I got no reply. I was frustrated and angry when I found out that she was fine and was simply ignoring me.

I didn’t feel like I deserved to be ignored. After all, this was the woman who had moved half her stuff into my house with plans of marriage just a few months earlier. This was the woman who had occupied most of my time, present and future. This was the woman who couldn’t seem to go an hour without texting me or calling me. Certainly, I deserved to know that she was…at least…still breathing.

Had I known that she simply wanted space to pursuit another man, my actions would have been much different. But, she chose to lie to me. When the truth finally came out, what she really wanted was for me to remain committed to her while she dated other men. She got jealous if I even talked to another woman but she was dating other men. I didn’t feel obligated to be fair to a woman who wasn’t being fair to me.

I’m fine with, “This doesn’t work for me” as long as it is the end. Really the end. But I’m not fine with, “This doesn’t work for me so I want you to hang around, not date anyone else, let me date other people and still have you to fall back on if it doesn’t work out because I simply can’t be alone.” In this particular case, it was a matter of what is right or wrong; fair or unfair. Being “nice” has it’s disadvantages and limitations. It’s easy to take advantage of a guy who is “Nice” but, at some point, he will crack. I had reached that point, I cracked, and now you are using it as an example of how my actions contradict my words.

How convenient it is for this woman to tell me that she “needs some space” to make sure that I don’t find someone else. Then, date another man to see if that works out and be able to tell her friends that I “Just can’t seem to let go” because I haven’t moved on. Now that is eating your cake and still being able to have it. So, I’m not feeling particularly bad about sending her five text messages and intruding on her life…sorry.

Hm, You couldn’t even last 48 hours. I go to work for 8 hours after our last argument and I get a text massage from you that read, “Are you just messing with me or do you have a life?” Well, I was working, I do that once in a while…having a kid to support and all that. I think it’s a little ironic that you take this stance about how men try to be omnipresent. I’m guessing that you didn’t see me on Facebook, BlogCatalog or Gmail and decided to text me. I just Googled “Omnipresent” and the definition had your avatar next to it, what do you think that means?

Posted in dating drama, men, relationships, women | 1 Comment »

Needy Guys Finish Last

Dec 1st, 2009 by Tiffany

That’s a nice spin you put on it, Mike, but you seem to forget that I was there. I did, in fact, “accuse” you of that same kind of suffocating behavior I mentioned in my last post. I think it was the night you called me complaining that the woman who had asked you for space less than 48 hours earlier hadn’t answered any of your five text messages that day. Hard to sell that you’re just “doing the right thing” and “responding” when you weren’t getting any response at all, and you thought it was unreasonable and inconsiderate that she wasn’t answering. You even suggested that texting someone five times in a day was entirely consistent with “giving her space”. I’m sure it’s tempting to decide that I’m projecting, but five unanswered text messages to a woman who has just told you she wants space rather speaks for itself. And that’s without even getting into that whole thing about how you put aside all of your own interests for months trying to find ways to keep her happy or your own recent post about how you just keep crossing off rules when you start noticing red flags.

It seems like that last post hit a lot of hot buttons for you and made you a bit less rational than usual. I’d guess those hot buttons have something to do with the word “needy”, because you’ve objected to my characterizing men that way twice in your post, even though I never used the word in mine. Ironic that you lodged that complaint in a paragraph about how you thought I was reading things in based on my own past experience. “Blame” was your word, too. I didn’t say a word about fault, or blame, or that anyone had done anything wrong. I said that when a man was omnipresent and couldn’t take no for an answer, that had a negative impact on my interest in seeing him again.

And the issue of women “testing” men–where did that come from? You mention it in response to my negative reaction to constant telephone calls. What, exactly, was the test? Having a telephone? Do you think that I had my land line installed specifically so that I’d be able to measure whether or not a man called me too often, or do you think I might have been thinking more about talking to my friends, calling my mother, even ordering the occasional pizza? (Think carefully–your answer will speak volumes.)

And all of that before we even get to the big conclusion, which seems to be that when a man has been so constantly in your face and demanding that you can’t stand the sight of him, it’s only fair to keep seeing him anyway because relationships require compromise. Relationships also require a certain degree of compatability, and I’d never be happy with a man who made me feel stalked every waking minute…any more than a man with a need for constant contact would ever be happy with a woman who needs a lot of quiet and time alone. What’s wrong with recognizing that? Why do you want to turn “this doesn’t work for me” into some big right / wrong, fair / unfair, reasonable / unreasonable someone’s fault kind of thing?

Tags: needy men, nice guys

Posted in dating drama, men, relationships, women | No Comments »

Nice guy seeks selfish woman

Dec 1st, 2009 by Mike

Tiffany, this is one of those areas where the memory of those needy…I mean, “Nice” guys that you have dated is so deeply etched into your brain that you project that behavior on other people and can’t see past it. You look for this pattern until you find it. You’ve accused me of doing this when it is entirely not true.

This is one of those, “Do these jeans make my butt look big” traps that women like to use. She will start off by saying, “I need some space” and within 24 hours I get a text message, email or phone call. If I answer, I am a jerk for not giving her the space she requested. If I don’t answer, I m a jerk for ignoring her because I am mad at her for wanting space.

There’s no way to win this. So, I go with what I think is right and give her space but still “respond” to her. The bigger issue is the problem that people seem to have with being honest. A lot of women say, “I need some time” and then sit back and tell themselves, “If he cares enough he will call”. And THAT is what isn’t fair to the women who really do need some space.

So, I don’t think that it is very fair for you to blame the men who came off as being needy to you. Most likely, they have learned this behavior from women in the past and recognize it for what they think it is. Or, you may be right and they are playing the “nice guy” card to simply get what they want. In that case, it isn’t fair for the men who actually are nice who they are making a bad name for.

Either way, it seems to be a good test for you to weed out men who you feel you are not compatible with. Whether it is fair for women to “Test” someone could be a subject of another debate. Also, the way that I interpret what you have said is that you simply want it all to be on YOUR terms. Isn’t that essentially what you have said, “I enjoy your company but only on MY schedule”?

Tags: dating, nice guy, relationships

Posted in dating drama, men, relationships, women | 2 Comments »

“Nice” is in the Eye of the Beholder

Nov 30th, 2009 by Tiffany

Mike, I can’t help thinking that maybe what these women you describe want is a man who is like you are as a friend . If you’re like most “nice” guys (and I have reason to believe you are), that person bears little or no resemblance to who you are in a relationship…or even when you’re working toward starting one. I’ve long heard men complain about how interesting, indepedent women suddenly become something else entirely when they enter into a relationship. I’m beginning to think that women aren’t the only ones.

Just a few days ago, I saw a forum post in which a man questioned why he’d experienced the same pattern in his last three relationships. There’s a big clue inherent in that question, don’t you think? The pattern he complained of was that women were very interested in him when he first started dating them , but “the more he did for them” the more distant they became. He interpreted this to mean that women were only interested until they became sure of him. To me, it seemed much more likely that every time he got a good thing going, he suffocated it.

I’ve dated some “nice” guys in my time. One liked to take me to nice restaurants, the theater, etc. and was a very interesting conversationalist…but as soon as we’d been on a couple of dates, he commenced calling me several times a day. I was busy at the time, working and going to school and doing volunteer work all at the same time, and I’d tell him I had to hang up and then, half an hour later, he’d call again. It didn’t take long before I started to cringe when the phone rang. A man whose company I’d enjoyed became a little cloying and then, not long after that, someone I wanted to avoid at any cost. I’m sure in his mind he was the “nice” guy who was attentive and spent money taking me to nice places and should have been every woman’s dream, but to me he was intrusive and demanding. The worst part was that I’d known him for a while before we dated, and I’d always enjoyed his company…but that was before he became unable to leave me alone long enough to finish a paper or have dinner with a friend.

Another “nice” guy called one afternoon and asked whether I wanted to go out that night. I’d had a stressful day and was tired and told him that I didn’t want to go out. That, apparently, was unacceptable. Spending half an hour going around and around in circles while he pressured me to do something “relaxing” with him that evening didn’t do much for my stress level, nor did the fact that he showed up unannounced and uninvited a couple of hours later to try again. Just a “nice” guy trying to do something “nice” for me when he knew I’d had a bad day, right? Why is it, exactly, that “niceness” so often looks so much like disrespect? Why is “nice” some kind of secret synonym for “can’t take no for an answer”?

Every man I’ve ever heard talk about how “nice” he was in a relationship and how he didn’t understand what went wrong was, on closer inspection, really just doing what he wanted to do with little thought to what the woman actually wanted. What he thought she shouldcajole, manipulate or pressure into the relationship he wants.
want, sure, but not what would actually make her happy. A man who bends over backward trying to keep a woman interested in him, or play the role of the perfect partner so that she’ll want to stay with him, isn’t being nice. He’s being self-serving. And as with anyone who gets so caught up in getting what he wants that he can’t see other people’s wants and needs clearly, he’s going to make life less pleasant for those around him…especially the woman he’s trying to cajole, manipulate or pressure into the relationship he wants.

Follow the Discussion:

Nice Guy Seeking Selfish Woman

Needy Guys Finish Last